I’ve been thinking about the thorny subject of tipping and why it diverges so much from countries such as France where tips are included to those like the US where up to 20% is expected.
And why should we pay tips on wine when there’s already a mark-up which is presumably designed to cover the cost of glassware and service?
Is it right to run a business where part of the staff’s remuneration is at the discretion of the customer and what they may or may not decide to leave?
Are you generally happy to pay the service charge on a bill or would you prefer to leave cash for your server.
Have you ever not left a tip due to poor service or do you think that’s the restaurant’s fault not that of their staff?
Love to have your thoughts.
PS I know that’s a rather weird photo as the wine doesn’t have a label which any self-respecting somm would be showing to the guest. But I downloaded it before I realised that 🙄
Here’s my American perspective. I worked as a waiter for years in the USA to support myself during university. The wage was really low and most of my income came from Tips. Tips were divided at the end of the day such that a small percentage went to the non waitstaff, Like kids who cleaned up the tables and wash dishes and so on. I personally thought it was great but, that’s just me - I loved the job and I was making way more than my friends working at the bookshop! And now if I have particularly good service I always tip big. And even if the service isn’t great I still tend to leave a decent tip because I know that’s how these people are making their money. Now that I live in the UK I’ve had to adapt to not leaving such exorbitant tips! But still if the service is particularly good or the food is particularly good I’ll definitely leave a tip but maybe only 10%! speaking of tipping in the UK, I still have no idea whether you’re supposed to tip hairdressers! And by how much!
Always used to be 10% to the stylist and a couple of pounds to whoever washed your hair. Tend to just leave a tip as in a restaurant now.
Interesting perspective from a waiter's POV. I think tipping big depends on the cost of the meal. If very expensive would tend to stick to 10-12.5% as I think service is already factored in.
But wages should not be low, with tips expected to make up the difference. If you're employed to do a job then you're employed to do a job, and your employer must pay you a fair rate for doing it. There's virtually no other business which works that way - what makes restaurants so perniciously "special" that they think they have the right to pay their employees peanuts and expect their customers to make up the difference directly?
As an Englishman who's moved to France, but also travelled a lot in the US, I infinitely prefer the French way. The waiting staff are professionals, and should be paid properly rather than at the whim of customers (and whether customers turn up in enough numbers that night or not, they are there and ready to work). Staff performance can then be managed by the management as necessary, as in any employment relationship.
Tips bring in a master/servant feel to the relationship, and a false niceness from the staff to the customer, because they're essentially performing for tips rather than simply doing their jobs. Everything becomes a bit over the top — "Look how brilliantly friendly I am being to you" — rather than service that is professional, courteous and knows the right times to be invisible.
And many of us who travel to the US will have had an experience when, with a mistake over tipping amounts, the server quickly turns on us with spite. I remember being invited to a party where a conference sponsor had taken over a venue and it was a free bar all night. I walked up to one of the bars, where they had bottles of beer lined up ready to hand out, and they handed me one. I said thanks and quickly got out of the way of the rest of the queue. But the bartender shouted at me with bare fury and hate writ across his face, "Hey, you! It's customary to tip for service in THIS country!!"
In France (outside of the main touristy venues) you get good professional service, and it's all very easy.
So, serving staff deserve proper pay, and customers deserve not to have to think about it all the time. Pay the bill at the end and keep the money out of the way of an enjoyable drink or meal. Let us focus on enjoying our evening rather than figuring out whether the owner is stiffing the staff in one way or another.
I think an archaic quasi feudal practise that has no place in a modern economy! Pay all your workers properly. That’s it. If a particularly generous customer wants to leave extra, fine, but guilt should not be part of the menu for everyone else.
So many issues. If you leave cash, who keeps it? What if more than one waiter serves your food? What about the KP or commis chef? Personally I think France gets it right with “service compris”. The American system is barking mad IMO. The worst of course are those who add a discretionary service charge but then invite you to leave a gratuity on top.
Oh, gosh, yes. That REALLY gets my goat. Suspect servers who are left cash may also be expected to hand it into a pool but it's always tempting for really good service.
Some interesting points here. I live in mid-Italy, and tipping is absolutely NOT part of the culture. In fact, I have been chased by bar staff as I leave because I have left a Euro on the counter for them - in order for them to return it! On the other hand, hospitality staff are not very well paid, but don't expect tips to make up for it. It's a bit of a conundrum. Generally speaking, service isn't included in the final bill either, except in the higher-end restaurants. I have a bistro and the tip-leavers are invariably non Italians. And any tipos left go to the staff, not to me!
I like to leave my server a reasonable tip. The extra money might bring a smile to their face. They working much harder for a living than I am. How much depends on their service.
Maybe it was a blind tasting!!! Tipping is a thorny subject, when travelling I tend to go with local custom but in the USA the etiquette gets a bit out of whack. My experience and advice I was given in the USA is about 20% (differs from State to State) but that doesn't apply if you are drinking wine that's more expensive than house wine level. As you said the markup should cover most of the wine service so I tend to decide the tip on the wine based on the quality of the Sommelier's advice. I already know what I like so if the somm advises me of something different at the same or lesser price I give a bigger tip, if he / she tries to upsell me the wine needs to be pretty amazing to get the equivalent tip
I nearly always leave 20 per cent unless the food is terrible or the service particularly bad. That said many restaurants add a discretionary service charge which I find somewhat irritating especially if I don’t notice on the night and pay a tip as well!
We lived on Germany for many years and there like in Switzerland it is normal to round up. However unlike the UK waiters are trained and service is generally of a high standard. In the UK I have declined to give the discretionary gratuity when service has been poor but have always explained why. Much prefer the German or French system as you know the staff are being properly regarded
I always tip unless the service charge is already high. I can afford it so why shouldn’t I! At a bar too, if the bartender makes me a drink (rather than just pouring it). It’s always appreciated and they remember me for next time!
Where else do you tip? At the cinema where you buy a hot dog? When you fly on a plane and are served food by the cabin crew? At the supermarket if you buy food and a checkout operator scans it?
The bartender you mention makes you a drink *because it is his job to do that* - he is employed to do it. His employer should pay him, not you.
I take your point but while we're still operating in a world where tipping is the norm it seems a nice gesture of appreciation. But it is inconsistent I agree
The problem is it is only us customers who can make it stop. I know that some restaurants don't operate on the basis of their customers topping up staff wages, but most do, and they are not voluntarily going to increase their wage bill if they can get away with it. If we want it to stop we have to be the ones who stop paying it.
I'm not sure enough people would be prepared to do that for it to have an effect as it would impact adversely on the staff in the short term. Restaurants are much more likely to up wages because they can't get enough staff.
In most places in the UK if someone tips the money are divided by everyone in the company. The two problems are that many people keep the money as a secret without telling or when a waiter/somm actually give the money to the manager he/she will never know how they are going to be split or if you actually will receive any (it still happens quite a lot).
As in the UK service is included (even if the salary includes the service charge in plenty of places) I found myself tipping in the case of exceptional service especially when it comes down to food recommendation and more importantly wine pairing. I don't know if that's right or wrong cause I think everyone should get a bit of it from kitchen to KPs, from cellar to barbacks but there's something about service that is really hard to explain. I worked as a somm for quite a few years and the quality of service can impact so much and it requires so many skills that I think is still highly underpaid.
It's a tough one. Wine aside, which I've mentioned, I happily pay 12.5% service on a bill but you just have to trust that will be passed on and distributed. If servers really go above and beyond will leave a bi extra.
On my first trip to Japan I left a small tip at a restaurant in Tokyo only to find a member of staff running down the street after me and quite forcibly giving me my tip back. Never made that mistake again!
I don’t think it’s really a mystery. In countries where you don’t tip, service is included - and the waiting staff are normally paid well. In the US, the waiting staff are not paid well and rely on tips. In Switzerland, where I live, the practice is to round up, e.g. if the bill is CHF99 or CHF91 you pay CHF100.
We don't know if these figures are before or after tax and whether they include any tips given. For the US, if the figure includes tips, it's good . . . if it doesn't it's bad.
Also - purchasing parity - what can our waiter or waitress afford to buy in their own country.
Also - FX rates are constantly changing - hence why it's best to use PPP
I'd rather not pay a "service charge" at all. I don't pay one in shops to help fund the staff's wages. When I travel on public transport there's no whip-round for the drivers. When I go to the theatre the ticket price covers the actors' fees and theatre staff wages.
Restaurants should operate like any other business, and set their prices to cover ALL their costs and leave a profit to make the business viable.
Here’s my American perspective. I worked as a waiter for years in the USA to support myself during university. The wage was really low and most of my income came from Tips. Tips were divided at the end of the day such that a small percentage went to the non waitstaff, Like kids who cleaned up the tables and wash dishes and so on. I personally thought it was great but, that’s just me - I loved the job and I was making way more than my friends working at the bookshop! And now if I have particularly good service I always tip big. And even if the service isn’t great I still tend to leave a decent tip because I know that’s how these people are making their money. Now that I live in the UK I’ve had to adapt to not leaving such exorbitant tips! But still if the service is particularly good or the food is particularly good I’ll definitely leave a tip but maybe only 10%! speaking of tipping in the UK, I still have no idea whether you’re supposed to tip hairdressers! And by how much!
Always used to be 10% to the stylist and a couple of pounds to whoever washed your hair. Tend to just leave a tip as in a restaurant now.
Interesting perspective from a waiter's POV. I think tipping big depends on the cost of the meal. If very expensive would tend to stick to 10-12.5% as I think service is already factored in.
But wages should not be low, with tips expected to make up the difference. If you're employed to do a job then you're employed to do a job, and your employer must pay you a fair rate for doing it. There's virtually no other business which works that way - what makes restaurants so perniciously "special" that they think they have the right to pay their employees peanuts and expect their customers to make up the difference directly?
It is fundamentally, utterly, wrong.
As an Englishman who's moved to France, but also travelled a lot in the US, I infinitely prefer the French way. The waiting staff are professionals, and should be paid properly rather than at the whim of customers (and whether customers turn up in enough numbers that night or not, they are there and ready to work). Staff performance can then be managed by the management as necessary, as in any employment relationship.
Tips bring in a master/servant feel to the relationship, and a false niceness from the staff to the customer, because they're essentially performing for tips rather than simply doing their jobs. Everything becomes a bit over the top — "Look how brilliantly friendly I am being to you" — rather than service that is professional, courteous and knows the right times to be invisible.
And many of us who travel to the US will have had an experience when, with a mistake over tipping amounts, the server quickly turns on us with spite. I remember being invited to a party where a conference sponsor had taken over a venue and it was a free bar all night. I walked up to one of the bars, where they had bottles of beer lined up ready to hand out, and they handed me one. I said thanks and quickly got out of the way of the rest of the queue. But the bartender shouted at me with bare fury and hate writ across his face, "Hey, you! It's customary to tip for service in THIS country!!"
In France (outside of the main touristy venues) you get good professional service, and it's all very easy.
So, serving staff deserve proper pay, and customers deserve not to have to think about it all the time. Pay the bill at the end and keep the money out of the way of an enjoyable drink or meal. Let us focus on enjoying our evening rather than figuring out whether the owner is stiffing the staff in one way or another.
A lot of good points there, Steve. And yes, when failure to tip provokes an aggressive response something is definitely wrong.
I think an archaic quasi feudal practise that has no place in a modern economy! Pay all your workers properly. That’s it. If a particularly generous customer wants to leave extra, fine, but guilt should not be part of the menu for everyone else.
💯
So many issues. If you leave cash, who keeps it? What if more than one waiter serves your food? What about the KP or commis chef? Personally I think France gets it right with “service compris”. The American system is barking mad IMO. The worst of course are those who add a discretionary service charge but then invite you to leave a gratuity on top.
Oh, gosh, yes. That REALLY gets my goat. Suspect servers who are left cash may also be expected to hand it into a pool but it's always tempting for really good service.
Some interesting points here. I live in mid-Italy, and tipping is absolutely NOT part of the culture. In fact, I have been chased by bar staff as I leave because I have left a Euro on the counter for them - in order for them to return it! On the other hand, hospitality staff are not very well paid, but don't expect tips to make up for it. It's a bit of a conundrum. Generally speaking, service isn't included in the final bill either, except in the higher-end restaurants. I have a bistro and the tip-leavers are invariably non Italians. And any tipos left go to the staff, not to me!
It really does underline how different everything is!
I like to leave my server a reasonable tip. The extra money might bring a smile to their face. They working much harder for a living than I am. How much depends on their service.
That’s entirely fair and very thoughtful
Maybe it was a blind tasting!!! Tipping is a thorny subject, when travelling I tend to go with local custom but in the USA the etiquette gets a bit out of whack. My experience and advice I was given in the USA is about 20% (differs from State to State) but that doesn't apply if you are drinking wine that's more expensive than house wine level. As you said the markup should cover most of the wine service so I tend to decide the tip on the wine based on the quality of the Sommelier's advice. I already know what I like so if the somm advises me of something different at the same or lesser price I give a bigger tip, if he / she tries to upsell me the wine needs to be pretty amazing to get the equivalent tip
Well that's an appropriately thoughtful and measured response!
It's the sommelier's job to do those things. That's why the restaurant employs him. They should be the ones paying him, not you.
Hi all
I nearly always leave 20 per cent unless the food is terrible or the service particularly bad. That said many restaurants add a discretionary service charge which I find somewhat irritating especially if I don’t notice on the night and pay a tip as well!
All the best
We lived on Germany for many years and there like in Switzerland it is normal to round up. However unlike the UK waiters are trained and service is generally of a high standard. In the UK I have declined to give the discretionary gratuity when service has been poor but have always explained why. Much prefer the German or French system as you know the staff are being properly regarded
`I think it's a much better system in principle though as Howard says the French don't get paid that well
I always tip unless the service charge is already high. I can afford it so why shouldn’t I! At a bar too, if the bartender makes me a drink (rather than just pouring it). It’s always appreciated and they remember me for next time!
Agree. A good cocktail is well worth tipping
Where else do you tip? At the cinema where you buy a hot dog? When you fly on a plane and are served food by the cabin crew? At the supermarket if you buy food and a checkout operator scans it?
The bartender you mention makes you a drink *because it is his job to do that* - he is employed to do it. His employer should pay him, not you.
I take your point but while we're still operating in a world where tipping is the norm it seems a nice gesture of appreciation. But it is inconsistent I agree
The problem is it is only us customers who can make it stop. I know that some restaurants don't operate on the basis of their customers topping up staff wages, but most do, and they are not voluntarily going to increase their wage bill if they can get away with it. If we want it to stop we have to be the ones who stop paying it.
I'm not sure enough people would be prepared to do that for it to have an effect as it would impact adversely on the staff in the short term. Restaurants are much more likely to up wages because they can't get enough staff.
In most places in the UK if someone tips the money are divided by everyone in the company. The two problems are that many people keep the money as a secret without telling or when a waiter/somm actually give the money to the manager he/she will never know how they are going to be split or if you actually will receive any (it still happens quite a lot).
As in the UK service is included (even if the salary includes the service charge in plenty of places) I found myself tipping in the case of exceptional service especially when it comes down to food recommendation and more importantly wine pairing. I don't know if that's right or wrong cause I think everyone should get a bit of it from kitchen to KPs, from cellar to barbacks but there's something about service that is really hard to explain. I worked as a somm for quite a few years and the quality of service can impact so much and it requires so many skills that I think is still highly underpaid.
Really curious to know your thoughts.
It's a tough one. Wine aside, which I've mentioned, I happily pay 12.5% service on a bill but you just have to trust that will be passed on and distributed. If servers really go above and beyond will leave a bi extra.
On my first trip to Japan I left a small tip at a restaurant in Tokyo only to find a member of staff running down the street after me and quite forcibly giving me my tip back. Never made that mistake again!
I had the same experience in New York, but for not tipping enough! Too scared to repeat that mistake!
Yes, important to know what the form is where you're eating!
I don’t think it’s really a mystery. In countries where you don’t tip, service is included - and the waiting staff are normally paid well. In the US, the waiting staff are not paid well and rely on tips. In Switzerland, where I live, the practice is to round up, e.g. if the bill is CHF99 or CHF91 you pay CHF100.
That seems reasonable enough. Would love to know what comparable pay rates are though
International pay comparisons are tricky in any sector, but usually a PPP (purchase power parity) measure is used. I'll try to dig up some info . . .
Oh, that would be really interesting. Thankyou!
Here are some figures, I've just copied from salaryexpert.com
US Waiter - mean USD 30,589
UK Waiter - mean GBP19,759
Swiss Waiter - mean CHF 39,303
France - mean EUR 21,392
Germany - mean EUR 27,272
But . . . here's the problem . . .
We don't know if these figures are before or after tax and whether they include any tips given. For the US, if the figure includes tips, it's good . . . if it doesn't it's bad.
Also - purchasing parity - what can our waiter or waitress afford to buy in their own country.
Also - FX rates are constantly changing - hence why it's best to use PPP
I'm going to start tipping in France!
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28793677
Wow yes. Especially if the waitresses are blonde by the sound of it!
I'm pretty shocked by the low figure in France
Me too! Unexpected
These raw figures don't support my initial reply to your post - but they might after we process the caveats
You also have to take into account taxes and mandatory insurances . . .
I'd rather not pay a "service charge" at all. I don't pay one in shops to help fund the staff's wages. When I travel on public transport there's no whip-round for the drivers. When I go to the theatre the ticket price covers the actors' fees and theatre staff wages.
Restaurants should operate like any other business, and set their prices to cover ALL their costs and leave a profit to make the business viable.